rHXN

Who invented the transistor?

https://people.idsia.ch/~juergen/who-invented-the-transistor.html
By: todsacerdoti
HN Link
Aloha - 3h 44m ago
I think a valid part of the question of who invented something is "who built the first working device" - describing something in theory and building working device are not the same thing.

AG Bell wasn't the first one to conceptually invent the telephone, he was among the first (along with Elisha Gray) in making practical working telephone and later a practical working telephone system.

kbr2000 - 2h 29m ago
"It was able to squeak, but not to speak. Experts and professors wrestled with it in vain. It refused to transmit one intelligible sentence." [0]

"A translation of Legat's article on Reis' invention was obtained by Thomas Edison prior to his filing his patent application on a telephone in 1877. In correspondence of 1885, Edison credits Reis as having invented "the first telephone", with the limitation that it was "only musical not articulating"." [1]

Fascinating stuff nonetheless, these inventors and their ideas... See also previous experimenters [2]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Philipp_Reis

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reis_telephone

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Philipp_Reis#Previous_e...

Aloha - 1h 51m ago
Yeah - though Bell's first apparatus wasn't much better - the invention of the carbon microphone is what really what set the telephone on to being a practical device. The rest of it was trying to build a network to connect people - and that was really hard (and capital intensive).
summa_tech - 2h 55m ago
To some degree, this is a consequence of the nature of the field you're working in:

* if the physics is so completely understood that you can confidently predict something will work from your sofa, and give an error-free recipe to build it, you indeed can invent from theory... but how deep can this invention be if the problems of the field are completely solved?

* if you are working in a field at the edge of human understanding, you cannot have the confidence in your ideas without having tested them experimentally; a theoretician makes at most a minor contribution to the actual inventions being realized, because he's producing - most likely somewhat wrong - hypotheses.

This latter kind of "theoretical" inventions are heavily subject to survivorship bias. Fifteen competent theoreticians make different predictions - all according to best, though incomplete, model of the world; a successful experiment validates exactly one of them, and we end up exalting the lucky winner as the "inventor".

lo_zamoyski - 42m 37s ago
> how deep can this invention be if the problems of the field are completely solved?

You're confusing depth with originality.

A field may be very well understood, but also very deep.

summa_tech - 35m 55s ago
In theory, that's true.

In practice, any unexplored corner of the field will contain surprises; these will require extra theoretical development to cover.

Usually things like imperfect understanding of materials get in the way. Pretty much the reason you need both theory and experiment to make progress in every single area of matter-based technology (i.e. not software).

6SixTy - 2h 21m ago
There's something to be said that mass production is another distinct stage of invention. Karl Benz may have invented the first internal combustion engine car, and plenty more built cars by hand for the rich, but Henry Ford made cars anyone could have for cheap.
constantcrying - 2h 55m ago
That is correct, but the article explicitly addresses this point and argues that the evidence points to Lilienfeld producing a working transistor.

"Later, some people claimed that Lilienfeld did not implement his ideas since "high-purity materials needed to make such devices work were decades away from being ready,"[CHLI] but the 1991 thesis by Bret Crawford offered evidence that "these claims are incorrect."[CRA91] Lilienfeld was an accomplished experimenter, and in 1995, Joel Ross[ROS95] "replicated the prescriptions of the same Lilienfeld patent. He was able to produce devices that remained stable for months."[ARN98] Also, in 1981, semiconductor physicist H. E. Stockman confirmed that "Lilienfeld demonstrated his remarkable tubeless radio receiver on many occasions".[EMM13]"

For many things (computers, rocketry, aerospace, etc.) and different reasons, Germany in the years around the second world war, was a pretty bad place to get international credit for your accomplishments.

JKCalhoun - 3h 12m ago
Theodore Maiman and the laser.
guywithahat - 2h 34m ago
I had that thought too, describing that something might be physically possible isn't really inventing it, you have to build (and arguably sell) the device too. Re-organizing someone else's equations and saying it's technically possible is maybe enough to publish a paper but certainly doesn't rise to the standard of inventing in my mind
kgwxd - 2h 45m ago
The only point in asking in the first place is pride and/or greed.
econ - 25m 25s ago
In his notes from November 1, 1913 Thomas Henry Moray described what later would be called the Moray valve. It used germanium.
Isamu - 3h 31m ago
What’s up with the ending that makes no sense?

>Where are the physical limits? According to Bremermann (1982), a computer of 1 kg of mass and 1 liter of volume can execute at most 1051 operations per second on at most 1032 bits. The trend above will hit the Bremermann limit roughly 25 decades after Z3, circa 2200. However, since there are only 2 x 1030 kg of mass in the solar system, the trend is bound to break within a few centuries, since the speed of light will greatly limit the acquisition of additional mass

They shift from talking about the transistor density to somehow considering a supermassive construct. Reminds me of LLM mashups.

observationist - 3h 2m ago
It's a natural extension of the ideas being discussed - the limit in computation per gram of mass has energetic bounds, as well, with configurations nearing the upper limit that start looking more like nuclear explosions than anything we'd regard as structured computation. The extremes are amazing to consider - things that look and act like stars, but are fantastically precise Turing machines, and so on.

It's a theme that sci-fi authors have explored deeply. Accelerando is a particularly fun and worthwhile read if you haven't already!

Isamu - 1h 57m ago
The Bremermann limit is about computational density. It makes sense to talk about computers that are ever more powerful but not necessarily larger.

So we talk about the supercomputers we call cell phones that are orders of magnitude more powerful than the desktop computers I used years ago.

It doesn’t make sense to talk about making super large computers before reaching the density limit, that’s a confusion of concepts.

Making computers faster has involved making them smaller because the speed of signal propagation.

ompogUe - 1h 9m ago
Computronium! Kurzweil goes into this in the Singularity is Near.

I've always wondered if Warlock from the New Mutants was made of it.

B1FF_PSUVM - 3h 15m ago
It seems to refer to the previous paragraph:

> The naive extrapolation of this exponential trend predicts that the 21st century will see cheap computers with a thousand times the raw computational power of all human brains combined

i.e. putting an upper bound on the exponential with solar system mass

newsoftheday - 1h 30m ago
I typed this into Gemini, "who invented the transistor?" and it correctly cites "John Bardeen, Walter Brattain, and William Shockley at Bell Telephone Laboratories in December 1947".
godelski - 16m 47s ago
When I ask Gemini and look at the sources it links this article...
AnimalMuppet - 1h 23m ago
If Lillienfeld had working examples, how is Gemini correct that it was the Bell people?
dboreham - 4h 34m ago
This is a good piece of writing that nicely illustrates how what we perceive as "who invented something" is mostly a function of money and politics.
twoodfin - 2h 28m ago
If we’re talking about invention rather than discovery, who created the inflection point between potential and actual use seems relevant if not dispositive.
grunder_advice - 3h 42m ago
I personally detest the way we sanctify some sole individuals while forgetting the bulk of the community. I don't care who published the first patent for the transistor. He or She certainly cannot be credited for all the work that has been put into it so that I can today use a hand held device to post this comment.
random3 - 3h 35m ago
I see where you're coming from, but while that's the case with most stuff ("normal science") , it often isn't the case for truly revolutionary stuff. Many breakthroughs happen not because of the bulk of the community, but against it, often at the highest cost for the individuals.
godelski - 3h 28m ago
Surprisingly also not true. Yes, people go against the grain and it is required to actually make paradigm shifts but they're never alone nor did they build from scratch. It may be few against many but it is almost never one against all. That one only prevails due to support from others. Those names don't shine but it doesn't mean they weren't critical to the advancement of a field
random3 - 3h 10m ago
Strong claims - maybe good time to do some homework instead of arguing without evidence?

Galileo was sentenced to house arrest for heresy. Boltzmann died by suicide after lack of acceptance by the scientific community. It's a very long list and something that's been studied, actually.

godelski - 1h 31m ago
You do realize Galileo and Kepler were around at the same time, right? Galileo is the best example of what I claimed.

You criticize me for "not doing my homework" yet you haven't heard of Castelli[0]? He's even in the fucking Wiki article on Galileo lol[1]

  > Boltzmann died by suicide after lack of acceptance by the scientific community.
Your knowledge of Boltzmann seems to be as deep as your knowledge of Galileo.

  > It's a very long list and something that's been studied, actually.
You're absolutely right. You should read some of it. Or if you don't like reading I do highly recommend An Opinionated History of Mathematics[2]. Blåsjö even has a whole season dedicated to Galileo.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedetto_Castelli

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei#Controversy_ov...

[2] https://www.podbean.com/podcast-detail/85etf-7ecf8/Opinionat...

jesuslop - 1h 58m ago
This is understandable, but maybe you cannot offer an alternative to just give credit nobody. Schmidhuber is playing the game by its rules being self-consciously contrarian enjoying himself, while offering an interesting historic pinch of retrospective justice.
rongenre - 1h 33m ago

  @book{Kuhn1962,
    author    = {Kuhn, Thomas S.},
    title     = {The Structure of Scientific Revolutions},
    publisher = {University of Chicago Press},
    year      = {1962},
    address   = {Chicago},
    note      = {Often cited with various editions, e.g., 50th ed. 2012},
    keywords  = {paradigm shift, normal science, scientific revolutions}
  }
godelski - 3h 32m ago
We all stand on the shoulders of giants. Giants who are just a bunch of people in a trench coat
ur-whale - 4h 9m ago
I wish Jürgen Schmidhuber would switch back to actually doing AI research instead of having become completely obsessed with "who invented what" because he feels like he has somehow been academically "robbed" at some point in his career.

He's now officially become a full-blown pariah in the AI world, most relevant people in the space running away at the first sight of his goatee at conferences, knowing exactly the kind of complete and utter crank he's become.

jesuslop - 1h 48m ago
Wow that is super vitriolic, more if from a colleague. Sure the hehe debate is about if he is to be considered more or less accomplished, but going from non-success to pariah, what is the need?
ur-whale - 1h 32m ago
> but going from non-success to pariah, what is the need?

Not sure "need" is the appropriate word here.

Grab anyone in who has worked on AI in the last 30 years, and pronounce the word "Schmidhuber" and watch the face of you interlocutor: you'll either get an eyroll or a smirk, but rarely a lively discussion on what he's "invented".

Nothing vitriolic about describing reality.

godelski - 1h 3m ago

  > but rarely a lively discussion on what he's "invented".
Go back a few years. You're biased by transformers. Before them everyone was talking about LSTMs. Not that that's the only thing he's done either
LatencyKills - 3h 47m ago
Was anything he claimed in the article incorrect? Personally, I enjoy these types of historical stories.
ur-whale - 1h 35m ago
I'm not criticizing the article at all.

In fact I am generally ignorant on the topic of who invented the transistor, nor do I in general particularly care about who invented what.

The quest for academic fame is something I've always utterly failed to understand.

And, if it the author was anyone but JS I'd not have said anything.

What honks me off about this guy though is to see a someone who did in fact do early impactful work on recurrent neural networks believe that:

a) that automatically gives him some sort of special status wrt the rest of humanity

b) because he didn't get the recognition he believes he is due, has completely stopped doing anything useful in the field, turning instead into an absolute crank that every one in the AI field makes fun of, and with a holy mission to rewrite history to assign credit where credit is due everywhere he believes there was an injustice.

c) every time I see someone with an exceptionally well-working brain waste their time because of ego or sheer stubbornness on shite like this instead of using it to do more interesting work, it makes me very sad.

Schmidhuber is a textbook example of this, and the other perfect example of this is Chomsky, a very smart man, who basically - because of his oversized ego and profound stubbornness - ended up wasting his entire life energy working on a linguistic dead-end AND a political philosophy dead-end.

I have a real hard time understanding how the brain of that kind of folks operates, being so bright on certain axes and totally and utterly dumb on others, especially the total lack of self-awareness.

random3 - 3h 31m ago
I'll just leave this here https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=gLnCTgIAAAAJ&hl=en so maybe you realize that's a bit of a tall claim from a random about one of the top researchers in AI, no matter what their opinions are. Perhaps you should look up what a "crank" actually is before labeling researchers, just because they don't match your religion.
JKCalhoun - 3h 10m ago
Your link did not work for me. "We're sorry…but your computer or network may be sending automated queries."
esafak - 3h 6m ago
It's his Google Scholar profile; you can search for it.
random3 - 3h 4m ago
It's Juergen Schmidhuber's Google Scholar page
ur-whale - 1h 23m ago
Did I claim anywhere that his early work wad bad?

Nope. The contrary as a matter of fact. But the facts are:

1) nothing of worth talking about since the LSTMs

2) most of the reasons why he's been visible in the last 20 years is because of shit like this (JS harassing Ian Goodfellow about attribution in the middle of a technical presentation. Watch the face of Ian, pretty symptomatic of when AI folks have to interact with JS these days).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJVyzd0rqdc&t=3778s

peterfirefly - 1h 12m ago
He is usually insufferable (and misleading) when he talks about AI innovation priorities. This article is different, though. It really does seem like Lilienfeld invented the transistor first and should be given credit for that. It also really does look like the official inventors knew that and were somewhat dishonest.

Funny, btw, that nobody here has mentioned that Lilienfeld also invented the electrolytic capacitor.

utopiah - 2h 38m ago
It's going to be Schmidhuber, isn't it?! /s